Legacy Code Rocks

Legacy Code Rocks explores the world of modernizing existing software applications. Hosts Andrea Goulet and M. Scott Ford of Corgibytes are out to change the way you think about legacy code. If you’re like a lot of people, when you hear the words “legacy code” it conjures up images of big mainframes and archaic punch card machines. While that’s true — it only tells a small part of the story. The truth is, the code you leave behind is your legacy, so let's make it a good one.
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Legacy Code Rocks






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Nov 16, 2020

Knowing how to prioritize tasks and how to eliminate unnecessary assignments is a crucial skill for successful project management. The more complicated project is, the less obvious its priorities are. If only there were a tool that could help us navigate through this complexity. Today we talk with Jason C. McDonald, CEO, and co-founder of MousePaw Media, about Quantified Task Management, the tool that does exactly that. When you finish listening to the episode, connect with Jason on LinkedIn and Twitter, visit his website at, and pre-order his book Dead Simple Python: Idiomatic Python for Impatient Programmers


Mentioned in this episode:

Jason on Twitter at

Jason at LinkedIn at

MousePaw Media at 

Quantified Task Management at

Jason C McDonald, Dead Simple Python: Idiomatic Python for Impatient Programmers at

Scott Rosenberg, Dreaming in Code at

Heads up! If you purchase the books through the link above, we will get a small commission which helps us continue to bring quality content to our Legacy Code Rocks! community. You won’t pay a penny more, we receive a small kickback, and you’re supporting our friends who wrote the book. Everybody wins!

Nov 2, 2020

We often talk about the makers and menders dichotomy on this show. But we rarely dived deep into the dynamics of collaboration between these two groups of creatives. Today we talk with Brandon Lewis and Luke Rabin, co-founders of BLDR, a digital agency specialized in creating UI/UX designs, technical docs, and developer teams. Building on the immense contributions of behavioral economics, Brandon and Luke talk about the ways of bringing makers and menders together and ensuring that their collaboration is fruitful and lucrative. When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to connect with them on LinkedIn, and visit their website at


Mentioned in this episode:

Brandon on LinkedIn at: 

Luke on LinkedIn at: 

BLDR at:  

Oct 19, 2020

As menders working with legacy code, we are focused on identifying and reducing technical debt. But how much easier this task would be if the creator of the code or the previous maintainer left us some breadcrumbs to follow? A simple note on the rationale for a particular decision they have made or a warning about interconnected lines of code would take us a long way! Today we talk with Andrea Goulet, co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer of Corgibytes. Her empathy-driven approach to software development earned her recognition as one of the Top Ten Professionals in Software Under 35 by LinkedIn. She tells us about this lack of communication in software development, the phenomenon she calls the communication debt, and how its reduction can make the software more robust and its maintenance more efficient. When you finish listening to the episode, connect with Andrea via LinkedIn, contact her via Corgibytes' website, and check out her LinkedIn courses: Agile Software Development: Remote Teams and Creating an Agile Culture

Mentioned in this episode:

Andrea on LinkedIn at 

Andrea on Twitter at 

Corgibytes website at 

Andrea Goulet, Agile Software Development: Remote Teams at 

Andrea Goulet, Creating an Agile Culture at 


Changelog podcast with Katrina Owen at 

Katrina Owen, at 

Indi Young, Practical Empathy at*

Legacy Code Rocks with Indi Young at

Ward Cunningham on technical debt at

Legacy Code Rocks with Arlo Belshee at

Daniel Kahneman, Thinking Fast and Slow at*

Legacy Code Rocks with Cyrille Martraire at 

Cyrille Martraire, Living Documentation at*

* Heads up! If you purchase a book through the links above, we will get a small commission which helps us continue to bring quality content to our Legacy Code Rocks! community. You won’t pay a penny more, we receive a small kickback, and you’re supporting our friends who wrote them. Everybody wins!

Oct 5, 2020

Most, if not all, of the legacy projects feature monolithic application architectures. However, moving to containers can bring many benefits: consistency down the pipeline, no-touch deployment, better support for decomposing the monolith - to name just a few. Today we talk with our own Ben Johnson. Ben is the lead code whisperer at Corgibytes and a developer with over 20 years of experience. We chat about containerization - what benefits does it bring, what challenges could you encounter in the process, which tools are best suited for the job, and what methodology proves to be most reliable. When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to connect with Ben on LinkedIn or contact him via the Corgibytes website, and read his fantastic blog about containerization.

Mentioned in this episode:

Ben on LinkedIn at

Corgibytes at

Ben Johnson, Moving a Monolith to Kubernetes at 

Dockers at

Heroku at

Sep 21, 2020

Our Legacy Code Rocks community is turning five this year. To mark this exciting milestone, we decided to catch up with Woody Zuill, our frequent guest, and a person who always manages to teach us something new and exciting. Woody is best known for introducing mob programming to the world, and so we kick-off the show by discussing mob programming in the age of COVID-19. However, as it is always with Woody, he expands our horizons far beyond any single topic. If you get inspired by this chat as much as we did, make sure to register for the series of Woody's public workshops, which will take place online from 20th to 22nd October. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Woody on Twitter at 

Woody on LinkedIn at 

Woody’s website at 

Woody Zuill and Kevin Meadows, Mob Programming: A Whole Team Approach at 

Mob Programming Workshop 20-22 October 2020 tickets at or 

Graham Wallas, The Art of Thought at 

Winston Royce, Managing the Development of Large Software Systems (Waterfall Paper) at 

Zeigarnick Effect at

Sep 7, 2020

Innovation is the hottest prize in the business. It attracts the most attention. It sells stocks in a blitz. It also distracts from what matters the most - maintaining, caring for, and upkeeping what we have already invented. Today we talk with Lee Vinsel, an assistant professor of Science, Technology, and Society at Virginia Tech College of Liberal Arts and Human Sciences, and Andy Russell, professor of history and Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences at SUNY Polytechnic Institute. Andy and Lee are technology historians and the authors of The Innovation Delusion, a new book that is coming out on September 8th, published by Penguin Random House. We provide you with a sneak peek into this book, which is already the number one bestseller on all major online bookstores. When you finish listening to the episode, be sure to grab your copy

Mentioned in this episode:

Lee Vinsel’s website at 

Andy Russell’s website at 

Virginia Tech College of Liberal Arts and Human Sciences at 

SUNY Polytechnic Institute College of Arts and Sciences at 

Lee Vinsel, Andrew Russell, The Innovation Delusion at

The Maintainers at 

Legacy Code Rocks, Proactive Programming with PJ Hagerty at

*Heads up! If you purchase the book through any of the links above, we will get a small commission which helps us continue to bring quality content to our Legacy Code Rocks! community. You won’t pay a penny more, we receive a small kickback, and you’re supporting our friends who wrote the book. Everybody wins!

Aug 24, 2020

When you build a house, you first build its foundations. This is what ensures its durability. The same stands for writing code - if written upon strong foundations, it will not be blown away by the first wind of change. The best way to achieve this is to think proactively. Today we talk with PJ Hagerty, the founder of, organizer of DevOps Days Buffalo, a developer, writer, speaker, musician, and community advocate. PJ tells us the secrets of proactive programming and how it can prolong the life of your code. When you finish listening to the episode, connect with PJ on Twitter and LinkedIn

Mentioned in this episode

PJ on Twitter at 

PJ on LinkedIn at 

Devrelate at 

Open Sourcing Mental Illness at 

DevOps Days Buffalo at

Chad Fowler, Dave Thomas, Andy Hunt, Programming Ruby: The Pragmatic Programmers’ Guide (The Facts of Ruby), 4th Edition at

Leadership from a Dancing Guy at 

Aug 10, 2020

As we are going through a racial injustice reckoning here in the United States, each of us needs to look in the mirror, actively seek information, and find a way to contribute to a more just future. We can't talk about fixing code before we talk about the neglected voices in the process of building and mending that very code. Today we talk with Bryan Liles, a senior staff engineer at VMware, a team leader, and a code writer who tries to pump goodwill into the world. We talk about racial injustice in America, its origins, its stubborn perseverance, and the ways to combat it and eradicate it once and for all. When you finish listening to the episode, connect with Bryan on LinkedIn or Twitter, and take a listen to the speech he gave at RubyNation 2013, which inspired this interview. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Bryan on Twitter at 

Bryan on LinkedIn at 

VMware at 

Bryan’s talk at RubyNation 2013 Why We Do What We Do at 

The Kerner Commission Report on Civil Disorders at 

Ibram X. Kendi, How To Be An Antiracist at

Aug 6, 2020

Staying agile is most important in times of crisis. After more than four months of Covid-19 disruption, it is clear that we are going through one of those era-defining moments. As the crisis drags on, we need to adapt and be more agile than ever. Today we talk with our own Andrea Goulet, Corgibytes CEO and Legacy Code Rocks co-host, about big changes we are going through here at Legacy Code Rocks and Corgibytes. So, take a listen and stay tuned!

Jul 27, 2020

Imagine if there were a tool to help you measure your code’s complexity, coverage, and smells, blend it all together and present you with an average score assessing your technical debt. SkunkScore is precisely such a tool. Today we talk with Ernesto Tagwerker, founder of Ombu Labs and—and the developer of the SkunkScore—about software maintenance and how to use SkunkScore to identify the most problematic parts of your code and guide you through your refactoring adventure. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Ernesto on Twitter at 

Ernesto on GitHub at 

Ombu Labs at 

Fastruby at 

Download SkunkScore at 

Jul 13, 2020

The need for speedy delivery is the reality of contemporary business. The requirements of modern software development are no different. However, when writing software we are making decisions based on knowledge, and finding knowledge often takes time. This is where we turn to software documentation, only to find it frustrating, incomplete, obsolete, or misleading. Today we talk with Cyrille Martraire, a software developer, finance business analyst, and the author of the book Living Documentation: Continuous Knowledge Sharing by Design, about how to make your documentation more comprehensive, useful, and intuitive. When you finish listening to the episode, connect with Cyrille on Twitter, check out his website, and take a look at his new book!

Mentioned in this episode:

Cyrille on Twitter:

Cyrille’s website:

Cyrille Martraire, Living Documentation: Continuous Knowledge Sharing by Design:

More on stigmergy at:

Eric Evans, Domain Driven Design: Tackling Complexity in the Heart of Software:


Jun 29, 2020

There are many causes of technical debt - unknown or ill-defined requirements, business pressures to deliver fast, procedural deficiencies during development, and many more. These are often just manifestations of a larger problem - lack of understanding due to limitations of natural language and inability to predict future social and technical developments. Today we talk with Einar W. Høst, a programmer at the NRK, Norwegian public broadcasting company, about these sociolinguistic causes of technical debt. We can't predict the future, but we can adopt strategies to make our code more flexible and resilient. Einar shares with us a few of these strategies. When you finish listening to the episode, connect with Einar on Twitter

Mentioned in this episode:

Einar on Twitter at

Norwegian public broadcasting company NRK at

Ward Cunningham on technical debt metaphor at

Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractus Logico-Philosophicus at

William Kent, Data and Realit: A Timeless Perspective on Perceiving and Managing Information in Our Imprecise World, 3rd Edition at 

Jun 15, 2020

Do you ever feel like we are entering the age of democratization of software development? Do you fear that the platforms enabling novices with little coding experience to develop software applications are commoditizing your service as a developer? Today we talk with James Augeri, a serial entrepreneur, Techstars alumni, U.S. Airforce veteran, and a founder of Jingle, where he is working on making better search experiences. James shares with us his passion for low-code platforms - software applications designed to provide a software development environment through GUI and model-driven logic, instead of hard coding. What are their advantages, and where are their limits? When are they useful, and when do they become a liability? James' answers to these questions will help you navigate this incoming disruption. When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to connect with James on LinkedIn and Twitter.

Mentioned in this episode:

James on LinkedIn at

James on Twitter at

Jingle at

WordPress at 

Drupal at 

Zapier at

Workato at 

Bubble at

Knack at

Duda at

Jun 1, 2020

When dealing with legacy code, it is easy to forget that the pipeline to deploy that code could be just as much "legacy' as the code itself. So how do you puzzle your way through resurrecting the pipeline, and how do you handle a legacy application from a CI/CD pipeline standpoint? Today we talk with Laura Santamaria, a LogDNA's development advocate, and DevOps practitioner. She shares with us the secrets of reconstructing legacy pipelines from the available logs and data, what to do when no data is available, and how to make legacy application's pipeline more usable for the next maintainer down the line. When you finish listening to the episode, connect with Laura on Twitter, and visit her website at

Mentioned in this episode:

Laura on Twitter at

Laura’s website at

LogDNA at

Rackspace at

May 18, 2020

How many pairs of eyes are needed to ensure the quality of a newly written code? When do you send your code to an impartial reviewer? Is a review always necessary? Today we talk with Pranay Suresh, a Silicon Valley startup expert, a former software engineer at Tesla, and a mentor and angel investor about code reviews. Pranay gives us a few tips on how to approach code reviews, both from the perspective of a reviewer and of a coder. When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to connect with Pranay on LinkedIn, and visit his website at

Mentioned in this episode:

Pranay on LinkedIn:

Pranay’s website: 

Bolt at:

GitHub Pull Approve:

GitHub code review:  

May 4, 2020

Switching from a monolithic architecture to microservices has become an accelerating trend these days. Many tech leaders have already successfully transitioned, and many others are planning to follow suit. But is it always wise to abandon the monolith and adopt the services approach? And if the answer is yes, how to make the transition least painful? Today we talk with Rob Zuber, a veteran of software startups, CTO of CircleCI, and a scalability expert. Rob tells us how to choose the right architecture for your business, and how to transition from one architecture to the other without abandoning already invested years of work, knowledge, and experience. When you finish listening to the episode, connect with Rob on Twitter and LinkedIn

Mentioned in this episode:

Rob on Twitter: 

Rob on LinkedIn: 


Sam Newman, Monolith to Microservices: Evolutionary Patterns to Transform Your Monolith at 

Apr 20, 2020

Coding with empathy is one of the Corgibytes' core principles, underlying everything we talk about on this show. But not since 2016 have we taken a step back and dived deep into the subject of empathy, what it means, and how to practice it. Today we talk with Indi Young, a speaker, writer, and UX researcher dedicated to empowering makers and menders to know their problem space through empathy and deep understanding of people's purposes. Indi is an author of two books - Mental Models and Practical Empathy. She tells us how to bring empathy to the developer's table and understand the user's needs beyond what data reveals. When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to visit Indi's website and connect with her on Twitter and LinkedIn

Mentioned in this episode:

Indi Young at

Indi on Twitter at

Indi on LinkedIn at

Indi Young, Practical Empathy: For Collaboration and Creativity in Your Work  at 

Indi Young,  Mental Models: Aligning Design Strategy with Human Behavior at 

Susan Cain, Quiet: The Power of Introverts at 

Apr 6, 2020

When repaying debt, it helps to know how big it is. The same holds for technical debt. The problem is: how do you measure it? Today we talk with Daniel Okwufulueze, a technology leader, programming polyglot, writer, and senior engineer at dunnhumby. Daniel helps us define technical debt and tells us how to quantify it without falling into usual pitfalls while doing so. When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to connect with Daniel on LinkedIn and check out his writings at

Mentioned in this episode:

Daniel on LinkedIn at

Daniel on at

Dunnhumby at 

M.M. Lehman, L.A. Belady, Program Evolution, Processes of Software Change at

Code Climate at

Mar 23, 2020

The code is predictable. Binary. It either works, or it doesn't. Working with people is much messier. Their actions and reactions are not easy to predict. Or are they? Today we talk with Claudius Mbemba, a tech leader, public speaker, and the CTO of Neu, about personality tests. How useful they are, which one to choose, is it enough to use only one, and how to use them to increase the productivity and happiness of your team. When you finish listening to the episode, visit Claudius' blog and make sure to connect with him on Twitter or LinkedIn

Mentioned in this episode:

Claudius on Twitter at

Claudius on LinkedIn at

Neu at

Claudius’ Blog at

Myers-Briggs personality test at

iMap Individual Multi-Construct Assessment Profile at 

The Four Tendencies Quiz from Gretchen Rubin: 

Disc personality assessment at 

Personalysis test at 

StrengthsFinder at


Mar 9, 2020

To paraphrase Lewellyn Falco, when one person is programming, it is that person's best ideas that are being encoded into the software; when two people are programming together, you get the best ideas from both of them. Today we are talking with Harald Reingruber, a software engineer who specializes in visual and spatial computing, about his upcoming pair-programming tour in the US and Canada. Where is he planning to go; how will he travel; who will he pair with; and what benefits pair-programming can bring to you and your team? Be sure to check out the details about his tour at

You can also connect with Harald on Twitter and invite him for a pair-programming session. 


Mentioned in this episode:

Harald on Twitter:

About Harald’s tour:

Lewellyn Falco’s strong-style pairing 

Feb 24, 2020

The easiest way to make your team members feel happy is to give them a sense of personal growth. By expanding their capacities, they exponentially increase the productivity of the team while strengthening their own sense of purpose. On today’s episode, we chat with Kwame Thomison. After a decade building software and software teams for companies like Facebook and Asana, Kwame set out as a leadership coach and founded his company, Magnetic, to help other teams build and sustain social learning cultures. When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to visit Kwame's web-site at and connect with him on LinkedIn or Twitter

Mentioned in this episode:

Kwame on LinkedIn at

Kwame on Twitter at

Magnetic at 

Asana at

LinkedIn Learning’s 2019 Workplace Learning Report at 

Feb 10, 2020

It’s never about what you don't know. It’s the difference you can bring to the table that matters. Today we talk with A.J. Rendo, a theatre director, a philosophy major, and an enthusiast historian turned software developer. A.J. gives us a wild ride through his story — how can you switch from directing theatrical shows to maintaining legacy software responsible for managing billion dollars a day? What does such a shift do to your self-confidence? And how do you overcome self-doubt? When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to connect with A.J. via Twitter, and check out some of the resources we mentioned in this episode. 

Mentioned in this episode:

A.J. Rendo Twitter at:

Michael Feathers, Working Effectively with Legacy Code at

Legacy Code Rocks: Defining Legacy Code with Amitai Schleier at 

Developer on Fire: Amitai Schleier - Safe for Programmers and Non-Programmers at

Martin Fowler at 

Eric Evans, Domain-Driven Design: Tackling Complexity in the Heart of Software at: 

David Thomas, Andrew Hunt, The Pragmatic Programmer, 2nd Edition, at 

Jan 27, 2020

In a modern fast-moving business environment, we are obsessed with quantitative measurements. But without qualitative data, we might get the wrong impression and incentivize bad behavior. Today we talk with Dalia Havens, Vice-President of engineering at Netlify, about selecting appropriate metrics to measure outputs of your team, increase its productivity, and, most importantly, keep it happy. Building on her experience from Netlify, GitLab, SailPoint and IBM, she shares with us how to promote team health through positive metric-driven management. When you finish listening to the podcast, connect with Dalia on LinkedIn.

Mentioned in this episode:

Dalia Havens on LinkedIn at 

Netlify at 

GitLab at 

IBM at 

SailPoint at 

SonarQube at

Code Climate at 

John Doerr, Measure What Matters: How Google, Bono, and the Gates Foundation Rock the World with OKRs at 

Jan 13, 2020

Most of the time, we focus on a specific aspect of software development and maintenance and try to see how these small pieces fit in the big picture of working with legacy code. Not today, however. Today we talk with Abraham Marín-Pérez, an extremely active Java developer with more than ten years of experience in various industries, about THE big picture and why legacy code rocks! Abraham is the author of Real World Maintainable Software and a co-author of Continuous Delivery in Java, a Java news editor at InfoQ, an advisor at the Meet-a-Mentor London Group, and a regular speaker at well-known international events. On top of that, he helps to run the London Java Community. When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to visit Abraham’s blog From Fragile to Agile!

Mentioned in this episode:

Abraham on Twitter:

Abraham on LinkedIn:

Real World Maintainable Software by Abraham Marín-Pérez at: 

Continuous Delivery in Java by Abraham Marín-Pérez and Daniel Bryant at:

Software Maintenance is an Anti-Pattern by Sarah Allen: 

Dec 29, 2019

Imagine if you could automatically follow, measure, and analyze your workflow, identify the sticking points, and remove them based on the coldblooded data. Imagine if there was such a thing as a Moneyball of coding. Today we talk with Arty Starr about the Idea Flow - a data-driven approach to measuring friction in developer's experience. Arty is the author of the Idea Flow, a panelist on the Greater Than Code podcast and a social entrepreneur. We talk about the eight most common friction points in coding and how the Idea Flow helps identify and eliminate them. When you finish listening to the episode, make sure to subscribe to Arty's newsletter at

Mentioned in this episode:

Arty on Twitter:

Janelle Arty Starr, Idea Flow: How to Measure the PAIN in Software Development, at 

Arty’s newsletter: 

Greater than Code podcast:

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